Media Files
Victor and Josephine Mack
Oral Histories
Interviewee Josephine Mack
Interviewee Victor Mack
Interviewer Martha Saunders
Victor and Josephine Mack Oral History
personal name Victor Mack
personal name Josephine Mack
geographic term Bondurant
geographic term Wyoming
topical term Ranching
topical term Homesteading
topical term Wyoming History
Josephine Mack was the daughter of Roy Thomas Fisk, who settled at the mouth of Hoback Canyon. The Mack family homesteaded on Dell Creek. Later settled on Jack Creek.

Primary English
spatial Bondurant, Wyoming
Interviewee Josephine Mack
Interviewee Victor Mack
Interviewer Martha Saunders
Rights Statement:
Copyright Bondurant History.

Bondurant History
Oral History
No index available for this file.
is for the POPS program,
and we're interviewing
Jo and Victor Mack today
at their home in Pinedale.
And we'll start with Joe.
We need your mother and
dad, and their birth dates,
and your siblings, and--
My dad's name was Roy T.
Fisk, Roy Thomas Fisk,
and he was born in 1906
in Foster, Washington.
And mother, Marcella
Youth Springer,
was born in Spokane in 1907.
And-- we getting there?
And I was born,
Josephine Ann Fisk,
in 1933 in Los Angeles
County, California.
And my brother, Roy, he was
born in Seattle in 1930.
VICTOR MACK: I don't know.
JO MACK: In '30, he's
three years older.
So that kind of
tells my history.
dad's name was Babe.
Everybody called
him Babe, Babe Mack.
And I don't know
when he was born.
JO MACK: 1898, I think.
VICTOR MACK: I don't know.
And mother's name
was Alma Murphy,
and she was born in Missouri.
JO MACK: In about 18--
the same time dad was.
JO MACK: Yeah, I think she
was born the same year.
VICTOR MACK: And I was born
over on the Big Sandy, Wyoming--
there was a post
office there then--
in 1926, July 6.
And then here in this
county a long time,
over in Fremont county too.
JO MACK: And Winnie?
sister was Winnie.
And she was six years
older than I am, maybe?
VICTOR MACK: That's the only
sister or brother I had.
did you go to school, Jo?
JO MACK: Most of my
schooling was in California.
And I did do a year
in Jackson, I boarded.
Kind of a--
--lonesome time.
People and phones.
Any rate--
--but most of it
was in California.
PHONE: Call from Joni Mack.
JO MACK: It'll pick up.
PHONE: Call from Joni Mack.
JO MACK: Should have
left that in there.
Any rate, I guess we
were married in '52.
And Victor--
JONI: Hey dad, give me a
call when you get a minute.
JO MACK: --was Born
in '53, wasn't he?
And then Joni came along in '56.
Yeah, and that's--
INTERVIEWER: OK, and where
did you go to school?
VICTOR MACK: Actually, they had
a little log house on the ranch
down on the horse camp,
down on New Fork River.
And I went to school
there, probably
the first six years of school.
post office called Big Sandy?
the post office,
after I was born in
Big Sandy, then they
bought the old horse
camp on the New Fork,
and that's where I
spent all my time.
I went in the Navy.
JO MACK: You went to
school in Boulder.
VICTOR MACK: And then after
about the sixth grade,
I think I went to
school in Boulder,
and then finished high
school here in Pinedale.
you graduated when?
VICTOR MACK: The end of 1943.
you went into the Navy.
spent two years there.
Did a lot of the time on an
aircraft carrier, midway.
And was out by the time
I was 20 years old.
INTERVIEWER: And that was all
on the east side, you said?
on the east coast.
INTERVIEWER: Atlantic coast.
VICTOR MACK: They sent
me to submarine training
in New London, Connecticut.
But that was in
the spring of 1945.
And here in the
Western country, it
seemed like the war
would never end.
But I got back there
and they thought
the war was practically over.
And I guess it was.
And instead of putting
me on a submarine,
they put me on an
aircraft carrier.
JO MACK: Thank goodness.
can remember hearing
a little about the USS Midway.
JO MACK: You can go visit
it now in San Diego.
VICTOR MACK: Yeah, it's tied--
the aircraft carrier is tied
up in the pier in San Diego.
JO MACK: And it's a museum.
VICTOR MACK: When that
aircraft carrier was built,
it was the biggest
warship in the world.
And then of course, the war
ended, and they actually--
that ship had been in
every sea the world,
and they took it back into
a shipyard, cut in half,
and extended it out again to
where it's almost twice as big
as it was when I was on it.
JO MACK: Of course that was
so jets could land on it.
it was used again?
JO MACK: All through Vietnam.
JO MACK: How long did it--
VICTOR MACK: Then they
mothballed it and sent it
to Bremerton, I think.
And then they pulled
it out of mothballs
and took it San Diego,
made a museum out of it.
And it's got a tremendous
amount of people
that go there every year.
I get a little bulletin
from it, you know.
JO MACK: We send
money to the museum.
And his name is-- he
was a plank owner.
You might call
him a plank owner,
out of 3,000 people
on board, yeah.
But his name is on
the board for owner.
INTERVIEWER: How did you meet?
JO MACK: At Floerke's,
at the Elkhorn Bar.
Everybody met there.
Oh, I think we'd
noticed one another,
like you do in a community.
And he happened to
be there, and my dad
was getting ready to pull
out for California, we were.
And we went down there
for a little drink or two,
and he was sitting
up at the bar,
and we just struck
up a conversation.
And then when we
got into California,
there was a letter
in the mailbox.
And so we were corresponding
all through the winter.
He moved to Riverton
and was working
with cows and things
over there with his dad,
and we just corresponded.
I happened to be in LA
and went to see her.
JO MACK: Didn't you go down at
that time to see Mrs. Craig?
VICTOR MACK: Yeah, that's
when I went to see Jack Craig,
but he wasn't there.
JO MACK: But any rate, then
he came and stayed with us
for a while.
And that kind of
did it, you know.
JO MACK: We just
sort of thought, OK.
you were married?
JO MACK: The next summer
in August we got married.
what, what year?
JO MACK: 1652, the 16th.
We went over to Idaho Falls and
got married by JP over there,
because Roy, my dear
brother, was telling us
all about a shivaree
that was being planned
and all that stuff.
Well, we didn't really want
to partake in one of those,
so we just went and got married.
when you came back,
you still didn't
have the shivaree?
INTERVIEWER: Oh, I'll be darned.
JO MACK: He even parked the
car down in the willows.
weren't very trusting.
JO MACK: No, we were not.
Any rate, it was kind
of a fun thing anyway.
Then we went up in
the hills and took out
a set of logs together, a big
experience for me to do that.
But when we moved
to Bondurant, it
was in the winter of '48,
'49, and it snowed every day
until sometime in February.
Mother thought we were going
to be covered alive in snow.
I think because the window, snow
was getting over the windows.
Anyway, I was in heaven because
I had never seen snowfall
and I had never walked
on it, touched it.
me where your place was,
where you lived
during that time.
JO MACK: We lived in that--
actually, my parents
had a partner, Dr. Hoyt.
And his name comes up,
I'm sure, now and again.
And he bought the two places
from Purvis, Marshall Purvis,
that was his first name--
JO MACK: --Marshall.
And bought that from them.
And then my folks were
supposed to do all of the work,
Dr. Hoyt was a wealthy man.
And my dad did fixing up, and we
moved into that homestead house
at Bill Bowlsby that
had been fixed up
with an extension on it.
And it was very comfortable.
We of course wore packs
and long underwear,
it wasn't that comfortable.
Any rate, it was very cold,
60 below most of the time.
And [INAUDIBLE] then of
course took us on as neighbors
and made skis for everybody.
Dad preferred to go on webs.
So any rate, it was, for
me, a wonderful winter.
But then when you're
14, something like that
is just super, because it
didn't seem cold to me.
But any rate, it
was an experience.
Living in Bondurant was
a big experience for me.
I'd never been around people
that hadn't been cityfied.
And it was a wild and woolly
time, and it just really was--
to look back on,
it was a fun time.
And I finally got the
horse I was always wanting.
JO MACK: Yeah, so I could ride.
So any rate-- and
spent my whole life
when we got married,
and were still there,
and it draws us back every year.
There's something about it.
It draws us back.
So any rate, he
has a good history.
JO MACK: Go ahead.
let's hear your history.
JO MACK: When you
got out of the Navy.
yeah, when I got--
the time that I was
in the Navy, dad
had sold the horse camp down
on New Fork to Phil Burch.
But he had a 10 year lease
on the old Koontz place
from Edith.
And he said, if you do the
work, I'll put up the money,
and we'll buy cattle
and work cattle.
So we did.
And we actually trailed
cattle in from south of Lander
there in 1948, I imagine
it was, clear to Bondurant.
And then the next
year or two, we
trailed cattle from Victor,
Idaho, over the old switchbacks
JO MACK: Mosley's?
VICTOR MACK: --Mosley's place,
and loaded them out there
on trucks.
lived in Wilson at that time,
JO MACK: And do say
how it was to run
those cattle off the hill.
it was impossible.
Because on this side
of the mountain,
it must have been
about the 1st of June,
and the grass had
really come up.
And they'd come to one
of those switchbacks,
and they'd just
go over the edge.
So I had quite a time
getting them to the bottom.
Got about half of them down
there and took them down
and put them in that
crenel along the fence
there out of Wilson,
and then went back
and got the rest of them.
Eventually took
them to Mosley's.
you have a big crew,
or were you by yourself?
had helped me up
on the other side of the pass.
JO MACK: Up on the train at
Victor's, where they kept you.
Uh-huh, it must have
been about the last year
the train was in there.
Then that old boy at
the train station said,
yes, we have a train
that's a tri-weekly.
He said, it tries very weakly.
And it must have.
Anyway, we got those cattle,
trucked them into Bondurant,
took them to the Koontz place.
And dad by that time, had bought
a part of the old [INAUDIBLE]
place there on Dell Creek.
So it was a permanent deal.
JO MACK: What year did you trail
the sheep up when you first
got that?
have been about 1941.
But we took them up there.
And the people were very
unfriendly on Dell Creek.
They didn't want us to bring
the sheep up to the road.
And they thought that the right
away was only eight feet wide.
And then come to find out,
it was either 60 or 80 feet.
And then they said, well, we'll
just get you a place around us
on the forest and you can
trail the sheep around that.
JO MACK: They didn't
want the sheep there.
A man named Snyder and Bakers?
VICTOR MACK: Must have been.
Didn't Baker own the
Little Jenny to start with?
VICTOR MACK: They did, yeah.
JO MACK: Sister or brother of--
INTERVIEWER: OK, where was the
Lee place that you mentioned?
INTERVIEWER: Is that-- the
Lee place you said you--
JO MACK: Lee Koontz?
INTERVIEWER: After Koontz,
then, your dad bought a place?
Clear down on the end
of Dell Creek there.
still got that place.
Vic's there.
INTERVIEWER: OK, and you still
own that little piece, right?
VICTOR MACK: Well, we don't.
We beat it over to our
son and daughter-in-law
a long time ago.
VICTOR MACK: But they've
still got it, he has.
JO MACK: And Jim
Bosone was the only one
that said, sure, bring them up.
VICTOR MACK: Jim was so nice.
He said, trail them across
here, it won't hurt a thing.
JO MACK: Well, he was from out.
VICTOR MACK: Oh, it was battle
valley, that's for sure.
JO MACK: He was
from the outside.
So he would--
JO MACK: He couldn't see
anything wrong with it.
VICTOR MACK: Jim Bosone was
married to Molly Campbell.
JO MACK: Nice guy.
nice stories about him,
that he was willing
to help everybody.
And where exactly was the
Koontz place, just so we have it
on record here?
VICTOR MACK: It's clear on
the east end of the Little
Jenny on Dell Creek.
JO MACK: It joins
the Bosone place.
It was above the Bosone place.
And the Koontz place consisted
of Lee Koontz's place.
The whole thing was
about 900 acres, I think.
JO MACK: Beautiful place.
and the Bellen place
were in the Koontz place.
the interviews that we
did with Mr. Bondurant, he
mentions a Shell Mountain up
in that vicinity.
Do you remember a mountain
that was just full of shells?
VICTOR MACK: I don't know.
child, that's one
of the things he remembered.
JO MACK: Shell Mountain?
Are we talking about fossils?
JO MACK: Yeah,
that's [INAUDIBLE]..
VICTOR MACK: Well, all
those mountains back there,
whether it's the elbow
or on north of there,
that is just full of shells.
JO MACK: Snails and--
mentioned snails.
He said that--
JO MACK: They're
pretty good sized ones.
Pretty good size.
JO MACK: When we
hunted up there,
I sat and picked a
couple of them up.
I thought, all that was ocean.
And nowadays you
don't hear about that,
but I just wondered if you
were familiar with it--
you lived here.
VICTOR MACK: Yeah, there's still
a lot of shells up there, boy.
JO MACK: Yes, it's
a whole-- there's
a sand bottom of an ocean,
and it's loaded with shells.
I think Vic Jr. probably
has quite a lot of them,
picked up rocks
with shells in them.
And pretty good sized
shells, snail shells.
your folks live up here?
VICTOR MACK: My parents?
VICTOR MACK: Yeah, they had a
place over in Fremont county
over by Ocean Lake
that they wintered over
there and somewhere over there
on the Green [INAUDIBLE] place.
JO MACK: Built the house there.
spend year round here?
JO MACK: Only two years.
So your family didn't go
to the Bondurant school?
JO MACK: We actually
took our kids over
to Riverton and put
them in school there,
because it was
still summer here.
And we just didn't
think that's fair.
Short year to spend
summertime in school.
So we did, then we bought a farm
and they went to school there
until they were
graduated high school.
Then they went to university.
VICTOR MACK: Yeah, we owned
a lot of land over there,
I guess around
3,000 acres around--
JO MACK: The lake.
VICTOR MACK: --Ocean Lake.
Then we sold that and bought
the Frank Ball place over
on Cottonwood.
VICTOR MACK: And then we
moved there and stayed there
till Leon Hirsch
bought the place.
JO MACK: I think we were
there 14 years or so.
And he was having to have
surgery on his hips and all, so
why are we doing this?
So we did have the opportunity
to sell it, and we did.
And it's worked well.
Been winters here and summers.
I know you had sheep.
How long did you
have your sheep?
INTERVIEWER: Sheep, mm-hmm.
VICTOR MACK: By the time
I got out of the Navy,
dad had told the sheep outfit.
VICTOR MACK: So we didn't
have sheep anymore after that.
you run cattle here
on this association?
VICTOR MACK: I did, yup.
We were there for a long time.
JO MACK: On Green River.
VICTOR MACK: Well, on Green
River, and the whole back stock
association, both.
Now I just need you to get
into some funny stories
that you'd like to
share with people.
When the camera wasn't
on, you were telling them.
JO MACK: We were
telling them, yeah.
Well, you know, their
little eyes looking at me
and thinking now, let's see.
when I was in the Navy,
I was sitting doing a
watch about probably
2:30 in the morning or
something like that.
The telephone rung and I
said, forward gyro compass
room, Mack speaking.
And the voice on
the other end said,
Mack huh, why do they
call you that for?
And I'd go, damn it, that's my
name, and just slammed it down.
And in one second, the same
voice called up and said,
Mack, I'm commander--
JO MACK: Of the ship.
VICTOR MACK: --and the
pit log is stopped up,
would you go down
and blow it out?
Yes sir.
JO MACK: But that
isn't the end of it,
tell her how you got
there, to the pit log.
VICTOR MACK: Yeah, well--
JO MACK: Where was the pit log?
log was clear down
on the inner bottoms
of that ship.
I mean, clear at the bottom.
And it was a brass--
looked kind of like
a sword, only it
was about eight feet long.
And it went clear out
through the inner bottoms.
Really an antique looking
thing, because the water
came in a little hole in it, and
measured the speed of the ship.
And it was so antiquated,
I don't know why they ever
used it, but they did.
And I had to go down about
nine decks to get there.
And we had to go through the
cooks and bakers sleeping
quarters, and they
were mad of course,
because I'd come through
there and wake them up.
JO MACK: Smalling the decks.
tell them, well, tell it
to commander Parrish.
JO MACK: It must have
been quite the thing.
Then you called him back?
Or did--
I didn't need to.
JO MACK: He knew, yeah.
VICTOR MACK: He could look
right down the little--
kept track of you.
VICTOR MACK: Yeah, he did.
So what do you suppose
was in the pit log?
VICTOR MACK: No telling.
It could have been moss,
could have been fish--
JO MACK: Fish, yeah.
VICTOR MACK: It could have been
whatever that sword looking
deal ran into.
JO MACK: How did you clean it?
compressed air there.
Blow it out.
would blow it out.
JO MACK: Something else.
your transportation
when you first came up here?
Your own--
JO MACK: Had a car.
JO MACK: Yep, we had a car.
Just a Suburban was my
parents car, and a Jeep.
didn't own a snow plane or--
JO MACK: Well no, we didn't.
We didn't.
old timers up here--
JO MACK: Yep, and we--
mother would go out the
highway with Bowlsby.
And he had a boodle and a team,
and he broke the road open.
Bandy did get a snow--
JO MACK: He found one
in Jackson for $500,
and mother and dad
loaned him the money,
or gave him the money.
Gave him the money because they
wanted him to take him out.
So we did, we went--
by then we had transportation.
And we need to go to town,
why he'd come and get them.
And then, of course, there'd
be little parties around.
I think it was Slim Stone that
lived at the K Bar O. And Slim
and Lois, she was
Ferris, Lois Ferris.
Any rate, they had a
party, a card party.
And daddy took us
down, and Winnie and I
skiid behind the snow bogging.
And the whole family
got on that way.
We went down the
highway, and they
had just willows sticking
up, if you remember,
for highway markers.
And they'd grow,
take root and grow,
because it was wet
country in those times.
Any rate, we'd come to
those, and Winnie and I
would be up on the snow banks
and skiing along behind,
and come to one of those, and
we'd had to switch right quick,
the rope around
that [INAUDIBLE]..
Any rate, then we
got to the bridge
and it had a little
gravel on it.
And I just sat down on my skis.
There's nothing
else you could do.
Just around our way across,
then back up on the snow again.
But we went up there, and of
course K Bar O is gone now.
I think it burned, didn't it?
now where was it?
JO MACK: It was just
north of Elkhorn.
VICTOR MACK: Where Henry's live?
INTERVIEWER: Where Henry's live?
JO MACK: Yeah, in that area.
I think--
INTERVIEWER: And who owned that?
JO MACK: Oh, who did own that?
I don't think we ever knew.
I think Slim and Lois leased
it, rented it, or something.
But then they moved that
building up on the hill
and it burned.
JO MACK: Recently burned.
VICTOR MACK: Some people
named Fraziers owned it,
and then Fred Turner married
one of them, remember?
JO MACK: Oh, was that
so to start with?
JO MACK: Betty, Betty Frazier.
Oh, I'd forgotten
that if I knew it.
Any rate, that's how we
got around in our old car,
was just buried in the
snow that first year.
Then the second year, they
had it down on the highway,
and Ben had put a team on
it and hauled it up and down
the road to warm it up
before we could start it.
They didn't have a good old
Ford engine at that time.
It was a slush drive thing that
took forever to get it started.
Any rate, nowadays
you'd probably
stick a fire under it,
one of those jet heaters.
But anyhow, that's how we did.
And it worked out pretty good.
attend any the big dances
they used to have in Bondurant?
JO MACK: --we did.
Always ended up in a fight.
Any rate, oh, they had their
bottles out in the cars.
They didn't bring
them into the church.
They'd go out there
and get a nip or two.
Then after a while,
somebody would get mad
at the other or whatever, and
they'd all just pour out, just
empty the church out.
Had an audience and fighting.
Kenny Pearson was bad for that.
He involved them together there.
He spent some time, I think,
fostering with cannibals.
Any rate, they'd get a
fight going out there.
And then I was so
impressed by Slim Stone,
he had a beautiful satin
white brocade shirt.
And when everybody came back
in, the music came up again,
Slim with dancing with Lois
and there's blood all down
the front of that shirt.
She was having a
good time as he was.
INTERVIEWER: Did he have--
did he play in an
orchestra at that time?
JO MACK: Yeah, but he
didn't play at the church.
I think they just had--
VICTOR MACK: I don't think so.
JO MACK: I don't think so.
JO MACK: No, and I don't
know where he struck up
an orchestra somewhere.
VICTOR MACK: In Wilson, I think.
JO MACK: Was it Wilson?
Any rate, I liked Slim.
He was--
JO MACK: He was a nice guy
as far as I was concerned.
Mostly just a high.
INTERVIEWER: Did you know
that Ferris' very well?
Yeah, we did, Don and--
VICTOR MACK: That was his son.
JO MACK: That was his son, Don.
VICTOR MACK: Bill Ferris.
JO MACK: Yeah, Bill Ferris.
What was his wife's name?
JO MACK: Jessie, right.
That's right.
And then the son, Don.
And he had some problems.
I think he went
to war, didn't he?
And I think he had a
little mental problems when
he came out.
But he got married, kind
of a funny little gal.
he committed suicide.
He did, yeah.
And then there was
the Charles Jones,
and they lived over at the
Erickson house on Dell Creek.
JO MACK: They owned
that property.
All of that was put
together by Kerns, I think.
Any rate, Charlie would
get lit up pretty big.
And I guess there was
one story where he got
to shooting in the house then.
His mother, Lisa, ran
behind the big pot bellied
stove, hid out there while
Charlie was on his rampage.
But all these were what
people talked about.
So I don't know how
much of that was true.
part of the history.
JO MACK: Part of the history.
And Lisa was a pretty
good sized woman,
and she and Rita Campbell
sort of got along.
Not really well, but
sort of got along.
And then I think the
geese came down the river,
was it geese Victor?
JO MACK: And Lisa
killed one and ate it,
told Rita how good it was, if
I remember the story right.
Anyway, they ended
up in a fight.
And I think Lisa
bit Rita's thumb?
Or was it--
just don't recall.
that off the slate, huh?
And she'd come up, Lisa
would come up, and visit
Mrs. Mack at the Koontz place.
And he had built
a little turnstile
on the fence around their place.
And Lisa told Vic she
thought that he didn't
want her to come and
visit, because she couldn't
get through the turnstile.
But she finally got up and
over the top of it a little bit
in order to get in.
But those were just
little funny things
that people in everyday life.
first met you, you had goats.
JO MACK: Oh, we had goats.
Yeah, my dad had started
up a serum thing with us,
that he worked in
a lab down in LA.
And he couldn't get any reliable
people to inject an antibody
into a goat, and maybe
it would die when
it was supposed to be tested.
And dad would be so embarrassed,
he spent a lot of money
on an antiserum.
Any rate, he got Vic to do it.
And we were only
too glad to do it.
So we built up a herd of
goats, and he would send us
the antibodies, and we'd
inject them in the goat,
and it would build
up these antibodies.
And amazing.
That we'd bleed the goat
and send the blood down
to California, and they
would make a test out of it,
like a rheumatoid arthritis
test, or something
like that out of it.
And we did that
a long time, even
after my father passed away.
We just kept that going.
And bled horses, did the same
with horses, we even did a pig.
Miserable thing, a pig.
They scream so.
JO MACK: Touch them
and they scream.
Any rate, and rabbits,
we did rabbits.
We didn't have to do
chickens, thank God.
Any rate, it did a lot of good.
And then while dad lived, he
had developed probably eight
or nine, maybe even a dozen
of those kinds of tests
with different
kinds of antibodies.
VICTOR MACK: Hospital tests.
JO MACK: Hospital tests.
VICTOR MACK: Take a bit of blood
and test it against these--
JO MACK: Antibodies.
VICTOR MACK: --bleedings.
Yeah, the antibodies
from the goats.
And could tell whether
you had this or that,
or he even did a pregnancy test.
And this different,
gosh he had a lot of--
father was a doctor?
I don't think you
mentioned that.
VICTOR MACK: Yeah, he was.
JO MACK: Oh, he was.
He was a microbiologist.
actually a PhD in that.
And his interest was blood.
And he did his thesis
on the Rh blood factor,
even that many years ago they
figured that out for babies
The reason we ever got into
that goat bleeding business,
we went down to LA one Christmas
and I went out with her dad
to somewhere, [INAUDIBLE],, or
wherever it was, little place.
And they had a couple
of goats for him.
And he went out there to
test it, and by that time
the goat had died.
And her dad was
just crestfallen,
'cause he had put a lot
of the company money
into building the
antibodies in this goat.
And when he was ready to
do something, it was gone.
And I said, well Christ, I'll
do it for nothing for you.
Well, it built up into a pretty
big business for us, finally,
'cause we bled goats,
probably 40 sheep,
and they called them oxen, now
they meant cattle, and horses.
We bled a lot of horses.
JO MACK: And a pig.
INTERVIEWER: A screaming pig.
was really something
to get into that
jugular, because it's
that deep, you know.
JO MACK: We decided
they were tusk fighters,
pigs are tusk fighters.
And so they evolved to have
really thick skin and fat
before you can get to any vein.
They tried it out of
an ear, didn't you?
Tried to get a little--
he couldn't get it.
JO MACK: Couldn't do it.
VICTOR MACK: They had to
get it out of the jugular.
Man, it was that deep.
JO MACK: Deep and--
VICTOR MACK: But we did it.
JO MACK: And young
Vic stood with--
Dick had to lay down to do it.
And young Vic had a
hold of his belt loop
in case the pig tried
to bite or something,
to pull him out of the way.
Oh, it was-- and the scream.
You can hear all over.
You'd have thought we
were cutting her throat.
She was a big pit too,
we'd have to rent a chute.
had a big chute made,
like a bucking chute
for the horses,
so we could put
a horse in there.
So then we put the hog
in there to bleed it.
And if we didn't have a time.
JO MACK: Yeah, it was.
VICTOR MACK: But it worked well.
JO MACK: Oh, it worked.
They got all the
blood they needed.
But then we got involved
with a German company,
and they did some things
really strange you couldn't
have done in this country.
They put a shunt into the
vein and then close it off,
so they didn't have to
constantly stick them
in the vein.
VICTOR MACK: You could just open
the valve, and there was blood.
JO MACK: And they'd
pour it into a paper cup
and go from there on the sheep,
or whatever it was they had.
And they bled
quite a few horses.
But this was up in
Austria, and we never
thought of selling any of these
animals when we were through
with them, because they were
injected with all of this.
And over there, they don't
think anything of it.
When they brought
horses up or anything,
the villagers were delighted
to have any of the horses that
were disposed of.
VICTOR MACK: They ate 'em.
JO MACK: They ate 'em, yeah.
They ate the sheep,
they ate everything.
But we thought that
was sure a strange way
of trying to keep
something sterile,
because we had all the
equipment for sterile.
But then we got to a point where
we had centrifuges and spin
the blood down, so then we could
return the cells to the animal
and send them the serum.
And it was all human
stuff, is what--
About the year before Jo and
I were married, one of the BLM
had told us to get
horses off of the desert
down there, where the
Jonah field is now.
So we sold over 100 head
of horses to that mink farm
down at Coalville, Utah.
JO MACK: $0.03 a pound?
VICTOR MACK: $0.03 a pound.
got rid of the horses.
JO MACK: He broke
a lot of them out
and they put a good stallion
out with them, big old palomino
stallion, and they made
some pretty decent horses.
Run him in, and there was
no reason to get him off.
We sold the rest of those
horses, 10 or 20 head
I guess, to--
was it Lloyd [INAUDIBLE]
over in Victor?
I think so.
JO MACK: He was working
on the Kern's place,
plowing it up and seeding it.
INTERVIEWER: Oh, mm-hmm.
JO MACK: What did he do
with them, did he tell you?
VICTOR MACK: Oh, I think he
took them over to Victor.
And as people do, they don't
ride the horses enough,
and one if them threw him
off, and you know how it was.
finally just sold them.
Get rid of them.
JO MACK: Well, they were
not really gentle horses.
Kind of took a--
VICTOR MACK: Well, you
know how a horse is.
You don't ride him
for all summer--
INTERVIEWER: Absolutely right.
VICTOR MACK: --and then get
on him and spur him out there,
he throw you off.
to try, isn't he?
the way that works.
JO MACK: Or just go hunting on
him, and you're right, yeah.
INTERVIEWER: Well, you haven't
touched on your artwork.
Well that's been
a lifelong thing.
It's been something I've
always tinkered with as a kid.
And then just kept
going forever.
pretty wonderful.
JO MACK: Thank you.
Yeah, it's been a--
and then when we started
taking out hunters,
I switched over to the animals,
because I got to see so many
of them.
JO MACK: Lately it's been--
then I got into cow--
--when we had the cows.
And had to do some of them.
Horses, and then I started
out with fruit and vegetables,
and anything around to
paint, you know, draw.
Anyhow, now it's just
anything, but decided
I can't do any large--
nothing like this anymore.
It just takes too long.
It takes me forever to do
one like this nowadays.
So I do small thing,
birds and small pictures.
Right now I'm doing a
white cow and her calf.
They kind of intrigued me at--
Glen has a mixture of cattle.
And I got a kick out of
the little white calves
that were born to a black cow.
And I just got a
kick out of them.
I called them spirit calves.
I don't know where
they came from.
He'll tell me, but they just go
back in the genetics for years.
Any rate, I was intrigued with
this little cow and her calves.
So I'm doing just a small
little 8 by 10 of her.
VICTOR MACK: Those white
calves like one another.
And you'll see instead
of just one white calf,
there will be four or five.
JO MACK: They'd
all get together.
VICTOR MACK: And they like
one another, stay together.
JO MACK: We like the
way you look, you know?
That's how we decided it
was, that they were all--
because we had some Longhorn
cross heifers at one time that
were bred Longhorn.
They were Hereford,
but bred Longhorn.
And those Longhorn
calves stuck together.
VICTOR MACK: On the forest
when we turned them out there.
JO MACK: And they
stayed together.
VICTOR MACK: They'd sure
try your saddle horse too,
won't they?
If they decide to go
somewhere, they went.
JO MACK: They did.
you ride a lot Jo?
I did, I loved it.
I miss it a lot, even now.
But hey, there comes a time when
I don't get on them anymore.
INTERVIEWER: Knowing that's
a sad part of your life,
isn't it?
INTERVIEWER: It was ours, yeah.
It's hard to leave it.
But I'd hurt myself
and hurt my neck.
And the doc in Jackson
said, you know,
a horse could fall
with you or anything
and you would lose your arms
and become a paraplegic.
And I thought, OK, I don't
want to spend the rest
of my life invalid, or invalid.
do you have hobbies?
I've been putting a
Kentucky rifle together
here for a couple of years.
JO MACK: The kids
gave him a kit.
VICTOR MACK: Yeah, I only
do it just occasionally.
VICTOR MACK: But that's
what I've been doing.
JO MACK: About an
hour or so at a time,
and it tries your patience.
Joni came to help, and
she had a little bit,
and she was drilling a
hole in the thing for him
and broke the bit off.
So now he's got to figure out,
what am I going to do now?
JO MACK: Can't get it out, so--
cheap bit, probably.
So anyway, the old
days in Bondurant.
My, my.
I think I told you about
hearing about the dedication
of the church.
And they had a big
dance, and I guess
they had the bishop up to
dedicate it, but he left,
I think.
Or was there a story that he
got snowed in or mudded in?
I can't remember that.
Any rate, they had a big
party, and it was a potluck.
And they were absolutely
lit to the gills.
And the fight started, and it
was fighting in the church.
And poor Mrs. Campbell, sit
in the corner and cried.
And everybody else,
women were hair pulling,
and men were pounding
on each other.
And it must have been a sight.
I didn't see it, I only heard.
JO MACK: But how
poor Rita, she just
felt so bad about
the whole thing.
And yeah, well, it
seemed a little bit
much to get to drinking in the
church and then having a fit.
And the other thing I'd
heard, that Slim and Lois got
married in the church when
it was three logs high.
a picture of that.
INTERVIEWER: Mm-hmm, we do.
JO MACK: Oh, I'm glad
that it was right.
That does it.
We don't have a
picture of the party.
JO MACK: You know, you should.
That would have
been outstanding.
And then of course, when
old Bill Bowlsby died,
they had a funeral in Jackson,
and everybody in the basin
went in.
And already there
were a few dislikes
between some of the residents.
And they got liquored up and
had a hard fight in the streets
of Jackson front of the RJ bar.
And one of individuals had--
well I guess we'll just say
it was Sam Hicks and Walden
Campbell who had a
fight with each other,
and Sam threw him through
the windshield of this car
in the parking lot.
And Daisy Hicks thought
that her husband, Ralph,
was having a heart
attack when he was having
a fight with Walter Floerke.
And so she swung her
heavy shoulder bag
and hit him under the chin with
it and spilled pill bottles,
and lipstick, and whatever
else out on the boardwalk.
And Walter crawled into
the RJ bar asking for help.
And my father commanded later
that the old man would've just
been sitting up there with
his arms folded laughing.
It was a perfect, perfect
thing for his funeral.
And he's probably right.
kind of a neat story,
to have it end that way.
JO MACK: Well, yeah.
I thought it was kind of fun.
Any rate, it was--
oh, and then part
of it too, I think
the Hicks' sent home for the
hired man to bring the guns.
JO MACK: Remember that?
forgotten that.
JO MACK: Yep, I think.
And of course by the time
the hired guys got up
with the guns, it was over.
Everybody had gone.
goodness, huh.
There was a threat there.
We're going to finish this right
here in the streets of Jackson.
Oh, my.
Any rate, it was such a thing.
And then many times when
you had the GI school,
after the school, they'd go down
to the Elkhorn and heist a few,
and maybe Charlie
and Walden would get
into it, or somebody like that.
And Walter called the
boxing gloves whiskey.
Just such times, any rate.
I can't think of any--
well, you had the picnic
up at hot springs,
and I looked for those pictures
and I couldn't find them.
And I think young
Vic has that album.
I think he absconded with it.
Someone asked me the other
day when we had our first one,
and the first one that's really
recorded, the first barbecue,
was at the dedication
of the church in '41.
But I told them that you had
told me just a couple of days
before of one that was
at granite hot springs,
and that we would have
to look into it and see.
JO MACK: Yeah, I think that--
when-- she did start
doing the early one.
JO MACK: I think that
your folks went with you.
VICTOR MACK: Oh yeah, sure.
JO MACK: And was Joy along?
They went up and had a potluck.
JO MACK: Fried chicken, maybe.
VICTOR MACK: That I don't know.
on an old picture
we have of Charlie
Noble, it said
he was the first one that
donated beef for the barbecue.
JO MACK: No doubt.
When that was just kind of
a party up there, wasn't it?
JO MACK: Rainy day.
VICTOR MACK: That's all.
JO MACK: It was rainy and--
JO MACK: Probably some
kids went swimming.
And that was the time that they
had a terrible time getting
the fire going.
Everybody wanted
a cup of coffee,
and they had a--
you told me on the--
on a grate.
And Walden kind of
stumbled around there
and knocked into the fire
and put the fire out,
and lost the coffee.
When you'd love to live forever.
They were not happy
with dear Walden.
probably weren't.
Had to start it all over again,
trying to find some wood,
dry it out.
More chopping up wood
and splintering it.
I thank you so much.
VICTOR MACK: Well, I hope
that helped you, Martha.
I'm sure it will.
INTERVIEWER: People will
love listening to this.
JO MACK: Well, it's been fun.
I'm sorry we couldn't-- but
some of those things I did kind
of recognize.
You might have too.
INTERVIEWER: You did help me
a little bit with my pictures,
JO MACK: But you could get your
daughter to blow some of those
up so you can see their
faces a little bit.
Well, thanks you
guys very, very much.
VICTOR MACK: Well, you're sure--